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  1. #1
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    The next generation mid-size performance sedan battle is going to be boring and only Cadillac can save us

    What went wrong? When exactly did Cadillac become the savior of enthusiast vehicles? The luxury mid-size performance sedan segment is iconic. BMW made its name with the M5. It was the car to beat. Nobody else was even close. Somehow, everything went wrong.

    Click here to enlarge

    The next gen battle is going to stink. It's boring. It's lame. Oh, sure, you will all point to the 0-60 times and how the interiors improved and how much quicker the new cars are. They're supposed to be quicker. They're also supposed to drive better.

    Let's do a quick history lesson starting with the car that set the bar. The E39 M5. What was it? This:

    Click here to enlarge

    E39 M5
    Engine: NA 4.9 liter V8
    Horsepower: 394
    Torque: 369 lb-ft
    Drivetrain: 6-speed manual rear wheel drive

    Now let's take a look at the competition from AMG at the time:

    Click here to enlarge

    W210 E55
    Engine: NA 5.5 liter V8
    Horsepower: 349
    Torque: 391 lb-ft
    Drivetrain: 5-speed automatic rear wheel drive

    And Audi? They offered something truly unique although it came late to the party:

    Click here to enlarge

    C5 RS6
    Engine: Twin turbo 4.2 liter V8
    Horsepower: 444
    Torque: 428 lb-ft
    Drivetrain: 5-speed automatic all wheel drive

    Now those cars all offer something different. The M5 offers the best overall combination of power and driver involvement. The E55 is the most comfortable and easiest to drive. The Audi is an all wheel drive all weather terror although very nose heavy. Each had its own personality.

    The subsequent generation reinforced this although a power war broke out that we are still fighting today. The cars are now gauged based on their acceleration instead of the driver involvement. Who cares if they are heavy? Just give them more torque from turbo powerplants.

    From the above we went to the following which is the peak of this battle:

    Click here to enlarge

    E60 M5
    Engine: NA 5.0 liter V10
    Horsepower: 500
    Torque: 380 lb-ft
    Drivetrain: 6-speed manual and 7-speed SMG III with rear wheel drive

    The answer from AMG was muscle. They initiated a horsepower war. Say what you want, the E60 M5 is the better driver's car compared to the W211 E55 AMG. Suddenly though, everything was about power.

    Click here to enlarge

    W211 E55
    Engine: Supercharged 5.4 liter V8
    Horsepower: 469
    Torque: 516 lb-ft
    Drivetrain: 5-speed automatic with rear wheel drive

    Audi's response was truly outrageous although again they were late to the party. They also never brought the C6 RS6 to the United States so they only get a participation trophy this generation:

    Click here to enlarge

    C6 RS6
    Engine: Twin Turbo 5.0 liter V10
    Horsepower: 571
    Torque: 479 lb-ft
    Drivetrain: 6-speed automatic with all wheel drive

    Notice how each car is distinct. Each car represents the philosophy and values of its company. The cars do not drive alike, do not have similar powerplants, do not have similar drivetrains, and have their own unique flavor.

    Now what? Here is how the next generation is shaping up:

    F90 M5
    Engine: 4.4 liter twin turbo V8 top mount turbos
    Drivetrain: 7-speed dual clutch with all wheel drive

    W213 E63 AMG
    Engine: 4.0 liter twin turbo V8 top mount turbos
    Drivetrain: 9-speed automatic with all wheel drive

    C8 RS6
    Engine: 4.0 liter twin turbo V8 top mount turbos
    Drivetrain: Automatic with all wheel drive

    971 Panamera

    Engine: 4.0 liter twin turbo V8 top mount turbos
    Drivetrain: 8-speed dual clutch with all wheel drive

    How exciting. Everyone has a direct injected twin turbo V8 at 4.0-4.4 liters with top mount turbos. Everyone has all wheel drive. Everyone is doing the exact same thing and it's lame.

    Sure, there will be differences. But is the character of the vehicles really all that different? Is winding out an F90 M5 anything like hearing the E60 M5 V10 scream past 8000 rpm? Will you be able to swing the tail out or correct with power on oversteer? Nope. All of these cars will be heavy straightline missiles. These cars have more in common with the Nissan GTR now.

    Click here to enlarge

    The only ray of sunshine? Cadillac. The only company doing something different. The current CTS-V features a supercharged LT4 V8. The car is automatic but rear wheel drive and lighter than its competitors. It also offers the best driving dynamics in its class.

    Will the next gen Cadillac CTS-V offer rear wheel drive, a manual, and less weight than its competition? If so, then it's Cadillac that will offer what the M5 used to and nobody else is willing to. A driver's car.

    Bored yet? I am.

    P.S.

    No, the Lexus GS-F does not count. It's still struggling to top the E39 M5 from almost two decades ago let alone the E60 M5.
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    I LoL'd at the Lexus comment. So true.

    I wonder how how much is due to government regulations too. Certainly chasing ultimate luxury adds a lot of weight. But mandatory air bags, backup cameras, crash test standards, etc all added a bunch of weight too. I'm not saying I don't want those things (I do), but they certainly don't help the weight battles.

    And I'm 100% on board about Cadillac. Badass. I just Ford would do something with Lincoln. The LS back in the day was a great step forward. But then they totally lost their direction while the rest of Ford has crushed it. I've already made up my mind that my next car will be a GT350. It won't be a daily, so I just need more garage space and disposable income (don't we all?).

    -Rich

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    I read that GM's traction control is pretty damn good vs. the competition so that's helping them be the AWD hold out.

    I've severely disappointed with Lexus. It seems they are always super late to the party...they need to launch a twin turbo V8, shove it into a new ISF, GSF and create an LSF.

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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    I blame the buyers. If i controled BMW i would only make E39 M5 and just tweak it every year and tell the people who complain to go $#@! themselves.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by 93siro Click here to enlarge
    I blame the buyers. If i controled BMW i would only make E39 M5 and just tweak it every year and tell the people who complain to go $#@! themselves.
    Obviously not going to happen but why can't retro be a thing? Why can't BMW say hey we bought 100 M5's or went through our used dealer inventory or whatever. We completely refurbished them, updated the suspension, improved the motor, new rubber, etc.

    Here you go. E39 M5 2.0 to honor our history.

    Something cool like that. Why not?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by richpike Click here to enlarge
    I wonder how how much is due to government regulations too.
    Honestly, I'm sick of that argument. If Ford can build a GT500 these guys can easily do something different. They don't want to. They want low costs and easy upgrades.

    The Germans are sucking the fun out of this.
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    Its a great idea....that's what Singer and Icon do so the business concept works...

    There must be a reason why the manufacturers are not trying monetize the popularity of their classic/older models....maybe it comes down to cost...

    - Too costly to refurbish cars in varying degrees of condition?

    - Too costly to retrofit required safety equipment and reserve for lawsuits?

    - Too costly considering it would be a limited launch and they would have to put up a lot of cash to buy numerous used cars?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bowser330 Click here to enlarge
    Its a great idea....that's what Singer and Icon do so the business concept works...
    Singer charges like $400k and it works which is just mind blowing. People actually buy that stuff.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bowser330 Click here to enlarge
    There must be a reason why the manufacturers are not trying monetize the popularity of their classic/older models....maybe it comes down to cost...

    - Too costly to refurbish cars in varying degrees of condition?

    - Too costly to retrofit required safety equipment and reserve for lawsuits?

    - Too costly considering it would be a limited launch and they would have to put up a lot of cash to buy numerous used cars?
    There's no way they wouldn't make money plus they'd look sooooo cool.

    I suppose it's more difficult than just releasing classic sneakers again. Why couldn't they do it though? If it's an old car they don't have to put in new safety equipment. They can sell it as used but just restored or restomodded.
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    i know that applies to you and me or even companies selling small numbers of older used restored cars but I wasn't sure it applies to a manufacturer selling numerous cars; the rules might be different.

    It would be cool to see who would do it first and if executed successfully could start a trend in the auto industry.

    Might even be a good business venture for an enterprising group of builders....manufacturer endorsed 3rd party builder?

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Bowser330 Click here to enlarge
    Might even be a good business venture for an enterprising group of builders....manufacturer endorsed 3rd party builder?
    Let's do it. How many millions we putting up?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Let's do it. How many millions we putting up?
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    i wish

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    http://m.chevrolet.com/ss-sports-sed...l#.WCuvl8U76aM
    Not exactly luxury but it's a sedan that comes in manual and power goes to the rear wheels
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    1 out of 1 members liked this post. Yes Reputation No
    Great post, and so true.

    My next car will be a Cadillac V series. The magazines are raving about the newest generation and how well they drive.

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    E60 M5
    Engine: NA 5.0 liter V8

    I think this is a typo E60 had the S85 V10 not a V8
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    I was about to comment that too Roadkillrob.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Roadkillrob Click here to enlarge
    E60 M5
    Engine: NA 5.0 liter V8

    I think this is a typo E60 had the S85 V10 not a V8
    No it has a V8 Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    Obviously not going to happen but why can't retro be a thing? Why can't BMW say hey we bought 100 M5's or went through or used dealer inventory or whatever. We completely refurbished them, updated the suspension, improved the motor, new rubber, etc.

    Here you go. E39 M5 2.0 to honor our history.

    Something cool like that. Why not?
    Isn't this how Nissan built one edition of the skyline?

    On another note, why doesn't my space bar workin your comment boxes? I'm having to type into notepad and copy/paste.

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    No it has a V8 Click here to enlarge
    No, it definitely has the S85 V10

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Stevenh Click here to enlarge
    Isn't this how Nissan built one edition of the skyline?

    On another note, why doesn't my space bar workin your comment boxes? I'm having to type into notepad and copy/paste.
    Same_thing_for_me_now_too_Click here to enlarge

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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Stevenh Click here to enlarge
    On another note, why doesn't my space bar workin your comment boxes? I'm having to type into notepad and copy/paste.
    An issue with Chrome only. Switch to basic editor for now. It's only an issue when you quote. I'm hoping Google fixes it soon...

    Did you update to the latest Chrome?
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by jyamona@motiv Click here to enlarge
    No, it definitely has the S85 V10
    I'm not listening Click here to enlarge
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by Sticky Click here to enlarge
    E60 M5
    Engine: NA 5.0 liter V10
    Nooooo you fixed it right as I was quoting it.

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    How come there's no mention of emissions regulations in this article? There are major talks about getting rid of the internal combustion engine altogether in Germany (I think you wrote about it Sticky, with the hilarious gravestone that said killed by the people that used it to wage two world wars).

    I think this is what has pushed all of these manufacturers to do the same thing (among other things, including the need to be competitive) - fleet MPG averages have never been stricter, EU emissions regulations and gas prices... I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I'm pretty sure they would still be building insane V10s and large displacement engines if they could.

    Obviously the Cadillac is an outlier, but it's the only one that doesn't come from Europe. IMO, we have the governments of the world to blame.
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    That is correct there are so much regulations in Europe. Displacement alone get taxes. There is a reason all of these V8s are below 4000 cc in displacement. And with how stupid these regulations are and the loopholes (TDI stuff) it seems with turbo low displacement engines you can actually use the loopholes and declare unrealistically low emission and gas mileage values that a big naturally aspirated can't yield.

  25. #25
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by AMGAffalterbach Click here to enlarge
    (I think you wrote about it Sticky, with the hilarious gravestone that said killed by the people that used it to wage two world wars).
    I did, yes: http://www.boostaddict.com/content.p...engine-by-2030

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by AMGAffalterbach Click here to enlarge
    How come there's no mention of emissions regulations in this article?
    Because I feel this is a cop-out. BMW uses this excuse yet look at Ford. They can build a high revving naturally aspirated V8. Look at Chevy. Look at Dodge.

    Cadillac isn't just doing the same engine. The main reason you see the 4.0 liter V8 with top mount turbos is the Germans cutting costs. BMW can get away with the same internals for the N63 and S63 motors. Porsche and Audi are going to share the same design. Mercedes is putting the M177/M178 into everything.

    It's the German manufacturers that really are ruining everything in the quest to maximize profits. Just look at what VW did with their diesels if you need proof of how broken this is.
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